This episode runs 29 min. 48 sec.

Are you considering launching your own podcast? Well, not so fast… Did you know most podcasters never release more than a few episodes? Wouldn’t you like to avoid those pitfalls for your own show? Josh and David unpack the things you should think through before you ever hit record on your first episode.

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Mentioned in This Episode 148: Are You Ready To Podcast?

How do you know if you are ready to start a podcast?

How did we start PSM.show?

Why are you starting a podcast?

Who will listen? Larger email database. Grow an audience first.

How? Upload 4-5 episodes at your launch.

 

Production of PSM Show is underwritten by:

 

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Let us know what you think about this episode. Should we do more interviews? Or, would you prefer just Josh and David (no guests)? Or should we get rid of Josh and David altogether? Use the form on our homepage to let us know.

 

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Read the Episode

Announcer: Welcome to PSM, the Professional Services Marketing podcast. It’s insight applied.

David Lecours: Hey Josh, are you ready to podcast?

Josh Miles: Am I ever.

David Lecours: No, no. That’s going to be our topic today.

Josh Miles: Oh, right. We’re supposed to talk about are you ready to podcast.

David Lecours: Yeah, because I think some of our audience might be thinking, “Gosh, our firm should have a podcast as a marketing tool, as a content marketing channel.” And so let’s address that today.

Josh Miles: Well, I think for fear of this maybe being a little too meta, is having a podcast about are you ready to podcast? But maybe you could tell our audience about our underwriting sponsor. Maybe that’s a good segue.

David Lecours: Yeah. We’ve been fortunate to have SMPS step up to be our underwriting sponsor, and SMPS has a vision of business transformed through marketing leadership. You can go to smps.org to find out much, much more.

Announcer: This is PSM. It’s insight applied.

David Lecours: Josh, so I know that you’re sort of cheating on me and you have another podcast, and I’m okay with that. But what I’m curious is … and you started that before we started this together … I’m curious how, back then, did you know you were ready to start a podcast?

Josh Miles: Yes. I will admit I’m seeing other podcast guests on the side, David. I’m sorry. Sorry if I hurt you.

David Lecours: That happens.

Josh Miles: Well, yeah. This was a couple of years ago. It was probably early 2015, and I got a wild hair and I ordered all the gear and the microphone and the mixer, and I was listening to podcasts, and I was crazy about them, and I wanted to do my own. So I hired this guy named Tim to come in to help us out with digital marketing. And I was like, “Tim, this is gonna be your first project. We’re going to launch a podcast.”

Josh Miles: And he said no.

David Lecours: Was he an employee?

Josh Miles: He was an employee. And then he qualified that no, which is why I didn’t kick him out. And the reality is he was right. He said, “It’s not that you aren’t technically ready to launch your podcast, but we don’t have the right structure in place to do this yet.”

Josh Miles: So he talked me through lots of things that I think might be helpful to our listeners if they’re thinking about launching a podcast and they want it to be successful as well.

David Lecours: Yeah. So I think that is great fodder for a conversation, because yeah, just because you have the tools, just because you have a paintbrush, it does not make you Picasso.

Josh Miles: Just because you’re in a garage doesn’t make you a car.

David Lecours: Yeah.

Josh Miles: Is my favorite version of that. [inaudible 00:02:59]

David Lecours: There are a lot of things that need to be thought through in terms of what should be in place. Yeah, so let’s talk about some of those things. What are some of the things that Tim knew about that you clearly did not in your zeal to get going on starting a podcast?

Josh Miles: Yeah. Well one of the things that I think he was most correct about was he said, “Look, we’ve got relatively modest email database, and wouldn’t it be great if we had a larger, a much larger email database to send this show out to to really drive subscribers?”

Josh Miles: Because if you want to ever hit Apple’s radar as a new and noteworthy show or, or really start to grow that audience, you have to grow an audience first and then send them to the podcast, because it’s really difficult for a new show to get attention if it’s not already getting attention. So it’s kind of this the self-fulfilling prophecy.

Josh Miles: So we spent the next year really building up our blog, which drove email subscribers, which built up our list almost 10x what it had been the year before. So we waited literally almost a whole year to launch this show, which that wasn’t the only thing that he recommended, but that was definitely one of the big game changers I think that we put in place.

David Lecours: Yeah. And I think it’s also really key to make sure that this is part of your overall strategy in terms of how does this fit within all the other different things that you are doing. So if you have this digital marketing strategy and you’re writing and speaking, how does podcasting fit within that so that ideally they’re working together and somewhat synergistically.

David Lecours: For example, you may ask to interview a podcast guest, do it using audio, then take that audio file and have it transcribed, use some of that, but also ask some maybe follow-on questions to create a print piece that would end up on your website as well so the podcast isn’t going to live in isolation. So thinking about how it integrates in with all the other marketing initiatives that you’re doing.

Josh Miles: Yeah. Or even to take that a step further back the other way is, like we did with our episode with Seth Godin, I interviewed him on video. So then we had also the video to be able to share on YouTube in addition to just the audio and then the transcribed bit. So yeah, all of those pieces working together I think are really important from the concept of people like to subscribe to the medium that they like. Some people want video, some people want audio, some people want to read the blog posts, some people want to hold it in their hand. And being able to provide those options I think is pretty key.

David Lecours: I think it would be beneficial before you start up a podcast to write a positioning statement just for that podcast. A traditional positioning statement format is we do x for y. And so if you were to say that x being services and y being the audience and say, “Hey, we cover x for y,” and sort of list out a couple topics that you think you would want to speak to.

David Lecours: You could also start in the other direction. You could start with identifying an audience. Let’s say you’re an architecture firm and you do higher education. So you know your audience is college and university administrators, and you might do some polling or you might listen to our last episode on client feedback and and ask them what their pain points are and develop a list of things that would eventually be topics.

David Lecours: But having a real clear … and I think for podcasting the narrower the better. I don’t think you should try to develop a podcast that is actually for all your prospective clients, unless you only work maybe in one very narrow vertical industry. Because the beauty of podcasting is that it’s not a broadcast medium. In my mind, it’s a very narrow cast medium, and it’s a place for like-minded people to geek out on specific topics.

Josh Miles: That’s a great point, and reminds me of the fact that you and I are really just the adopted parents of the PSM show and our friends over at Image 3 who started this show had two parallel podcasts that were topically very similar, but one of them was PSM show, as you see it now, their version of it, and then the other one was all about marketing in schools, so it was all education-related marketing where they covered lots of the same news stories, lots of the same topics, but it was to that very separate audience instead of, in my head, back in the day I probably would have tried to just do one podcast that was a general marketing thing and try to hit everybody with the same hammer.

David Lecours: For sure. And so maybe it makes sense to just remind listeners. if you didn’t hear our episode, I think it’s like 101, but we’ll put that in the show notes, about how Josh and I started … sorry, episode 102 … about how we adopted this show and, so when we did adopt it, it was from this firm out of Australia, and they decided to narrow their focus to just on school marketing and we decided to take it over. And at that time, as the name of the podcast indicates, it was professional services marketing. So we adopted it and we decided to run for.

David Lecours: The good thing is that they had 100 already in the can in the archive of iTunes, so we weren’t starting from scratch. We probably alienated some of their loyal audience because we didn’t have Australian accents and their are other hosts did, and they sounded so much better.

Josh Miles: Frankly, I’m sad about that too.

David Lecours: Yeah. I wish I had an Australian accent too. I would have been much more popular in school.

David Lecours: But anyway, we took it over and we adopted it, and then, I don’t know, 10 or 15 episodes in, we decided to narrow our positioning to the AEC industry rather than all professional services, because that was what we knew best and that’s where our audience was mostly coming from and asking questions about.

Josh Miles: Yeah. And as far as I know, they’re still continuing on with their education podcast that obviously wasn’t my space. I was a subscriber to PSM show long before we took over the podcast.

David Lecours: That’s right. You were a guest on it.

Josh Miles: Yeah. I had actually [crosstalk 00:10:01].

David Lecours: And that’s how the relationship got started. Yeah.

Josh Miles: Yeah. It doesn’t matter how long the internet is around or how long we can do things, but when you actually connect and talk live on an interview with somebody who’s literally on the other side of the planet, that continues to blow my mind. And I hope I never lose the wonder that that is possible today. It’s pretty amazing.

David Lecours: Yeah. And I think one of the benefits of podcasts is it is this intimate medium where you’re listening by yourself with your headphones on or in your car, and it’s a pretty uninterrupted medium. You don’t have a lot of advertising interruptions or other things getting in your way like email when you’re listening. So it can be super effective. For storytelling it can be a little longer form, which is really nice, and you hear somebody’s voice right in your years. So hopefully that’s pleasant for you, our audience, right now.

Josh Miles: Right.

Josh Miles: So I think the other thing related to the positioning statement that you mentioned is this idea of almost creating your podcast for an audience of one. So for instance, maybe our audience of one is a woman named Jen who’s a marketing director at an engineering firm, and she’s got challenges with she’s regularly doing proposals and she’s trying to help her firm stand out and she’s trying to win the right kinds of work, and she’s dealing with all the crazy things happening in our marketing industry and has a firm that’s traditional and maybe they’re experimenting with new things. So you start to picture who this person is and what they’re dealing with, and maybe some of you listening say, “Holy cow, that is me. My name is Jen.”

David Lecours: If, so write to us, psm.show.

Josh Miles: But I think that idea helps you to have … it’s sort of like when you are on stage and you look out to an audience in a particular section, everybody in that section feels like you’re looking at them, staring into their soul. When you have that target of one, it starts to have that ripple effect with your audience, I think.

Josh Miles: The takeaway here is thinking about not only what the positioning is, but also who you’re speaking to, I think are the keys to helping you find not only your content, but also the voice or the tone of the show.

David Lecours: And I’ve even heard of people going as far as making a cutout and taping that to their computer screen or wherever their podcast studio is set up. So they’re literally looking and talking at somebody with eyeballs. Granted, it’s a static cutout, but at least it’s a little more human than just looking at a screen. So yeah, that can be … and I’ve also heard of people interviewing using the video component, not actually even showing the video, but just having the visual connection of somebody through a screencast to help improve the audio.

Josh Miles: You know, David, I do have the little cutout of you over my monitor here.

David Lecours: Thanks. I see your little circle in my Skype window there too.

Josh Miles: It’s just your profile pic. Sorry.

David Lecours: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Josh Miles: I get confused sometimes.

David Lecours: Right. Right. Okay.

David Lecours: So we’ve talked a little about why … Are there some practical things that somebody should do? What I’ve heard is that when you launch, you should pre-launch with four to five episodes already in place, so that if somebody likes one, they can listen to another one, they can refer friends to listen to one, and then the chances of Apple and iTunes taking you more seriously are greater. Maybe you’ve heard some other tips.

Josh Miles: Yeah. That was one of the recommendations from our now famous Tim was to launch with a stockpile of episodes. And I think with our other show, we launched with maybe six or seven, and at the time that seemed like a Herculean task of getting six or seven in the can and then not doing anything with them. That felt really weird until launch day.

Josh Miles: But if I had it to do over, I would just have as many as possible, like maybe a whole season’s worth or maybe 12 or something, so that you can launch with a bit of a stockpile, and then you can continue to schedule out so that when you go right back into production mode immediately, you’re not already behind the gun.

Josh Miles: We talked about statistics a little bit two episodes ago. This is a made up statistic as well, but I think there’s something like 90% of podcasts only have five episodes or less. Meaning most people quit, most people do not stick with it. There just a bazillion that launch every day. But I think having that stockpile, having some that are ready to go into that regular schedule after you do your launch week or launch month allows you to get back into a rhythm and not feel like you’re already at a loss.

David Lecours: One thing, Josh, you and I have talked about before is how nice it is to have a podcast partner. And with your other show, you’re a solo guest, and so every episode falls squarely on your shoulders. And correct me if I’m wrong, but that’s an interview format, right? Every show is an interview.

Josh Miles: Yeah. Almost every show. I’ve done one or two monologues, but it’s been mostly interviews. And then of course I am the host of all of the interviews. So if I’m not recording them or editing them, they’re not getting done.

David Lecours: Yeah. What we’ve talked about is how nice it is to … we alternate between interviewing each other or having episodes where we don’t have a guest, it’s just you and I, and then also we go out and individually interview guests, and just distributing the load among two people, we have decided to publish every other week, which we think is a good frequency for our guests. But yeah, just having that, because otherwise …

David Lecours: Set yourself up and set expectations with your audience for something that’s sustainable for you. So yeah, of course it’d be great, put out an episode every week, but if it’s just you and you don’t have a partner, don’t set yourself up to fail.

Josh Miles: Yeah. And I think we’ve, we’ve shared this before as well, but typically when David and I hop on and do one of these conversations, we knock out two at once. So when we’re in that rhythm of David and I speak and then one of us interviews someone, and then David and I speak and someone interviews someone, we are effectively covering two months of the show just by one recording session for a little over an hour, and then each of us have homework to go out and do one more that month, which covers us again for two months after we’ve gone and done the thing just once. So that definitely makes it a lot more sustainable, a lot less stressful and totally manageable.

David Lecours: One thing we also do is a running list. We share an Evernote file that has possible future topics. If we were probably more on top of it, we would have an editorial calendar, which is what we would recommend to think through, like let’s say you are a marketing director and there are certain things that are going to happen at certain times in the year, where you get spikes in seasonal type of business, and you want to think through what topics you’re going to … so if you were to plan out over the next 12 months, and let’s say you’re putting out an episode every other week, you’ve got 26 slots and you probably want to think through when certain episodes air versus other ones, and you plan accordingly. And if you’re having interview guests, that helps you also think through when a particular guest would be more relevant for a certain time of year.

Josh Miles: The other thing that I might preach, but I’m maybe poor at practice, is the promotion of the episode itself, which is-

David Lecours: Oh yeah, marketing your marketing.

Josh Miles: Yeah, exactly. Especially when you have a guest on, by giving them heads up in advance that the show is going live next week, and then the day before send them links and send them even some sort of outline or even sample Twitter, Linkedin, Facebook copy and images that they can use, and then continue to promote it after it goes live.

Josh Miles: On the flip side, my typical is if David is promoted it, I’ll share what he promoted, or if I promote it, I usually do it once or maybe touch it on two social networks, and then I go back to work and I forget that it’s okay to promote these things more than once because you’re really gonna likely see different traffic and different people that you’ll reach with each of those posts.

David Lecours: For sure. I think it’s also highly beneficial to establish a standalone website for your particular show. For ours, yes it’s hosted on iTunes and some of the other podcast players, but we like to have this central repository that we use to send people to in all the social networks. So whenever we’re promoting the show, we have a standalone website with its own URL for the show.

David Lecours: I think it could, if your firm had a podcast, it could probably live in a subdomain. It certainly, if it had its own URL, it looks a little more polished or professional. But anyway, having a place on a website where you can post your inventory of past episodes, so you can allow people to go and find past episodes, and then also a place where they can get in contact to you to give you feedback, to suggest future episodes, and yeah, so there’s this marketing hub of where you send the episodes to and where you send prospective listeners to.

Josh Miles: Yeah, and there’s probably a huge strategy around many of the podcast podcatchers, as some people refer them to your podcast players. I know iTunes in particular, it’s always great to get ratings and reviews inside of the podcast app itself, which is maybe a prime opportunity for me to remind our listeners if you’ve not given the PSM show rating or review, we would appreciate that. And it’s a great place to give us how many stars and a little bit of feedback, and allows others to see what someone thinks of the show.

David Lecours: Yes, absolutely.

David Lecours: So what else about podcasts, Josh? I know you spoke about this recently. Were there any other tidbits or tips that you shared?

Josh Miles: Well, I think maybe in lieu of getting into specifics on gear, if anybody wants to geek out on that, I’m happy to talk about that later. Or maybe we could do a future episode that’s just about super nerd talk for podcasting. Might lose half of our audience for that.

Josh Miles: But I think the bigger idea here is if you’re a a gearhead or you’re obsessed with that kind of stuff, you could spend years trying to test out different microphones and understanding what kind of gear that you need. And I think the lesson here is not to let this idea of launching a perfect show get in the way of putting out a really good one and putting out really good content. Because no matter how much you practice or how ready you think you are, you’re going to go back and listen to that first episode at some point in the future and you’re going to cringe a little. It doesn’t matter how great you think your gear is or what you like about your sound or your intro music, you’re going to go, “Yeah, it’s so much better now. Why was this one so bad?”

Josh Miles: I think the lesson here is just get after it and go do a show.

David Lecours: Yes, absolutely. And hopefully you’ll be improving and moving in an upward trajectory, not going in the other direction.

Josh Miles: Yeah. And I think the bottom line is it doesn’t matter where you start, you’re gonna improve all the time. So if it’s really good or just kind of good or just okay, your next five are going to be better and better and better.

David Lecours: And so Josh, maybe we should share like prep-wise, what we do for episodes. Would that be helpful do you think?

Josh Miles: Yeah. I think when I was initially starting out with my other show, I had this flow chart, this whole process graphic that I had to create, and it was really because I’ve never done this before, I need to think through all the pieces. So for me it was really helpful to have that visual.

Josh Miles: Of course, for our show, we’re not quite that OCD about it. But yeah, do you want to a little bit about what it looks like?

David Lecours: Yeah. So usually we’ll reach out to each other via Slack. We set up a separate private Slack channel, and we’ll throw out a topic and come to an agreement, and then we’ll start to put some notes in Evernote about that topic. And then one of us will take the lead and organize those and develop some questions. So we have a loose outline. We don’t always follow it and we don’t always … aren’t meticulous about outlining the entire show, but we have a direction and a premise for the show, and then we’ll improvise and go off in different directions. But it’s nice to have something visual to look at just to keep us on track. And so hopefully our audience will think there’s a logical sequence to what we’re talking about, rather than just completely winging it.

David Lecours: So that’s an episode between Josh and I, and maybe you can talk about how that might differ from when you do an interview.

Josh Miles: Yeah. I think similarly, as the things that carry over on both of those examples are that we have a pretty consistent intro and outro we have started experimenting with, and maybe the audience can let us know if they like this better, with a less formal intro, since our music and our Australian carry over intro says the name of the show, we felt like it was a little redundant to remind you that you’re still listening to the same thing from five seconds previous.

Josh Miles: And then our closing, we have a standard thing that we say as well. And I think that’s almost like watching a sitcom and it’s always the same music and it’s always the same little montage before the show starts, and it reminds you of the implied promise of what you’re about to experience.

Josh Miles: So on the interview shows, again on my other show, I tend to ask the same questions over and over and over. So it’s a similar process with repeated questions as they’re appropriate for the guest, but we have really different conversations and a really different tone based on who the guest is. And then for PSM, we’re a little bit more open ended with that, where if we have a proposal coach on versus a software person or other kind of consultant, we’re gonna dial in those questions just to their experience to see how it relates to professional services marketers.

David Lecours: One of the things I do is I’ll come up with a couple of questions that I’d like to ask a guest, but they know their topic way better than I do. And so I asked what are the questions you’d like me to ask so that you can really shine and demonstrate your expertise. And usually that’s where I get some questions as well.

David Lecours: It really shouldn’t sound like a script. It needs to sound more like a conversation. So I think the key is to, as the interviewer, have transitions, and if you need to recap things or ask a follow-on question, so it’s not just like question, answer, question. That gets a little bit dull.

Josh Miles: I tend to not go in order either. Just based on the tone of the last answer, if they say something about advice, then I might follow up that with, “Okay, so what is your favorite piece of advice that you’ve received?”

Josh Miles: And then they talk about a mentor, and I say, “Well, in addition to your mentor, who are some of your heroes or people that you look up to?”

Josh Miles: It becomes a really natural conversation flow, even though, again, kind of hitting a lot of the same questions, but it feels natural at that point and not super scripted.

David Lecours: Yeah.

David Lecours: So back to our original question, are you ready to start a podcast? We think most of you are ready. You don’t have to publish it. Maybe you just do a dry run where you do a recording and you mock it up, pretend to do it. And maybe it’s so good you just save that recording and that becomes your first of five episodes that you launch at once.

David Lecours: But I’m guessing that you’ll be better at it than you think you are, you’ll get better at it as you go, and you can really come up with something that’s compelling and meaningful for your audience and that helps sway them that you’re a leader in your industry.

Josh Miles: Yeah. And I think if I can just leave you with one parting thought, again, if this is something you think you’re mentally or emotionally ready to do and you’re just worried about all the technical aspects, those are really great things to outsource. There’s this beautiful thing called Google. I think if you search long enough for consultants who help launch podcasts or go to Craigslist or Fiverr or whatever, I’m sure there’s lots of job boards out there who have people who are hungry to help set up and launch podcasts. So don’t let that be the thing that gets in your way.

Josh Miles: Again, don’t let the gear or the technical stuff be the thing that slows you down.

David Lecours: Absolutely. Yeah. We have a professional editor that edits these shows. Thank you, Jen. She does a great job.

Josh Miles: Pretty amazing.

David Lecours: We do some of the things ourselves, but you certainly could outsource the website part. We do outsource the transcription. There are people out there that are experts at these things, and don’t be afraid to hire them, because it’s what they do.

Josh Miles: All right.

David Lecours: Well, I think that about brings us to an end, David. Anything else to add?

Josh Miles: Yeah, absolutely. No, I think we’re good.

Josh Miles: So yeah, if you guys have any questions or comments, suggestions, maybe you have a future guest that you’d like us to interview, please contact us at psm.show. As we mentioned, we have our own website for this show. Scroll down and you can drop us a line. And so that’s it for this episode on podcasting from Josh Miles and myself, and much thanks to our sponsor SMPS. We will see you next time.

This episode runs 43 min.

Your A/E/C firm has been shortlisted for a presentation interview with the prospective client. What can you do to increase your odds of winning the project? David interviews presentation expert Carol Doscher of Graceworks to answer this question and more. 

Subscribe to PMS Show on iTunes

 

Questions Answered in This Episode 147: Carol Doscher on Presentation Interviews

 

Production of PSM Show is underwritten by:

 

We Want to Hear From You

 Let us know what you think about this episode. Should we do more interviews? Or, would you prefer just Josh and David (no guests)? Or should we get rid of Josh and David altogether? Use the form on our homepage to let us know.

 

Subscribe to our Podcast

 To subscribe to the PSM podcast in iTunes – click here

 

Read the Episode

Announcer: Welcome to PSM, the Professional Services Marketing Podcast. It’s insight applied.

David Lecours: Hello. I’m David Lecours, and today I’m joined by a special guest, Carol Doscher, to talk about presentation interviews. Welcome to the show, Carol.

Carol Doscher: Thank you. I’m delighted to be here.

David Lecours: Now, before we learn more about Carol and her business and what she does, I want to remind our listeners that our title sponsor is SMPS, business transformed through marketing leadership. You can find out more about SMPS at SMPS.org.

Announcer: This is PSM. It’s insight applied.

David Lecours: Now Carol, we met probably I don’t know, five, seven years at a conference that we were both presenting at.

Carol Doscher: Oh yes. I remember being incredibly impressed by you.

David Lecours: Oh, well thank you. And you’ve been on my radar for someone to have as a guest, so I would love for you to give our audience a little background on yourself, and how you got to found GraceWorks and what you guys are doing.

Carol Doscher: Okay. Great, thank you David. I always think it’s helpful for listeners to have a sense of context as to where I’m coming from. My background is that I was an actress and a singer. I did that professionally in New York for about 10 years but then I wanted to talk to real people about real things, so I turned a corner and strangely, via the world of a racquet ball league, I met an architect and I ended up in the AEC world, I ended up marketing architectural and construction management services for about 6-7 years.

Carol Doscher: Of course, during that time I had a chance to work with people on their presentations and their communications, and honestly I saw the suffering that happened. My heart went out to them, I offered a few suggestions, the smiles started to show up on the faces, the sweat started to dry up a little bit. Anyway, life goes on, and I can’t believe it but this October, GraceWorks is going to be 24 years old.

David Lecours: Wow, congratulations.

Carol Doscher: Thanks. We’ve been having a ball. Again, to put a little bit in context, we work about I’d say 85-90% within the AEC industry, and we work nationally and internationally. Our headquarters are here in New York which is where I am right now. We have an office in Atlanta, headed by Jennifer Hebblethwaite, who is our senior VP, and amazing. We have an office in Cleveland, Ohio. Joe Massey is in there, and we have Judy Straalsund who is stationed out in Portland, Oregon. Basically, we have lots of trainers and we get in our suitcases and we go. So there you go.

David Lecours: Sounds great. It’s just so interesting how these concentric circles of your passions, like you were an actress and interested in presenting, and singing, and then you started working in AEC, and the convergence of those two things is the presentation interview. Our premise today for the show is that an AEC firm has been shortlisted for a presentation interview, and I think all of our audience can relate to this. We’re going to get into some tips and techniques and best practices for how to do this, because you’re the expert, and that’s why you’re here.

Carol Doscher: That’s kind. That is where our heartbeat. We love to help the people feel comfortable in their own skins, and win more work.

David Lecours: Yeah, and really it’s such a great exercise because it is very tangible and it’s very measurable. You either win the work or you don’t, right?

Carol Doscher: Yeah, exactly.

David Lecours: I kind of always like to start anything with why, and I think the first question is why does a client even hold a presentation interview? What’s the point?

Carol Doscher: Yeah. That is interesting, because it’s expensive, right?

David Lecours: Sure.

Carol Doscher: It’s an expensive exercise. Some of our clients will go, “Well, it’s because they have to,” you know?

David Lecours: Right.

Carol Doscher: Sometimes it’s required, but overall, I believe that if there are … The reason is if there are humans involved, it’s about making a human connection with the audience on an intellectual and an emotional level. I mean, they’ve received your book, they’ve received your proposal, and I believe they’ve been intellectually convinced that, “Okay, these people, this firm can do the work.” But who are these people? Behind the written word, is there are a relationship? Can we create that relationship?

Carol Doscher: There was a study that SMPS funded a few years ago, or several years ago now, but I believe it still stands strong, and it’s called getting from the shortlist to the contract. They did this study, they asked the clients, “What are you looking for when you hire?” These clients, they came back loud and clear. Three things they care about. Trust, commitment, chemistry. That’s what they said.

Carol Doscher: What I love about that, you know David, anytime you are having a one on one or you have face time with another person, you can absolutely create that stuff if you know what you’re doing. That’s what drives our work and how we love to help our clients prepare for these interviews, is how do you do that? I want to share one more thing that really came up, just actually recently about, you’re saying why are they doing it? What’s the point and what are they looking for?

Carol Doscher: I’m going to say the word energy. Because it was very curious, I was working with a client recently, helping them to prepare for a specific presentation. The previous week that same firm had presented to the same client on a different project. They did not win, and they got a debrief, and the client said, “Okay, this is what we were looking for” and they started with energy. They said, “We want energetic presenters.” Then they went on and gave them a few more facts and more details about the project, and they ended the debrief by coming back to, “You know, we really wanted energetic presenters.”

Carol Doscher: I have to say that struck me and that’s why I wanted to mention it here. Energy is a big deal, it totally creates, what do you call that, an experience?

David Lecours: Sure.

Carol Doscher: That experience that they have with that team. All right, so and body language will help all of that stuff. Okay, that’s about [crosstalk 00:06:24].

David Lecours: Yeah. So in terms of energy, I guess probably what they want to get, I mean it’s not just energy in a vacuum, it’s this energetic enthusiasm about working on the project, right? Don’t you think the client kind of wants to hear that you want it and communicate that excitement about the project?

Carol Doscher: Totally. When we coach shortlist interviews, and I mean yes, we do general training and we do shortlist interviews, so again, context. But when we coach these things, and our clients win, and they get a debrief from their client, “Why did you hire us?” Just what you say, David, these three things come back. The enthusiasm of the team, they showed that energy, that enthusiasm, they cared about it.

Carol Doscher: They talked about what the client cares about, and they came off and they demonstrated teamwork. Those three things consistently come back. This energy, and also I’ll say one more thing about this energy thing, because I think it’s huge. If you think about it, any audience, two things are happening. Everyone is potentially distracted, all the time, aren’t we? We’re overloaded with stuff.

Carol Doscher: I look at it and the panelists come in, and unfortunately, because of the history of time, there’s certain practices that go on, kind of what I call me, forgive me, but [inaudible 00:07:52], tired, boring presentations, right?

David Lecours: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Carol Doscher: These certain things go on. That’s what the panelists either consciously or maybe even subconsciously, that’s what they’re used to.

David Lecours: They expect it, yeah.

Carol Doscher: When a team brings energy that is focused on being helpful, and really meeting the clients’ needs, it completely helps them. I get comments from the listeners, “I couldn’t not watch you.”

David Lecours: Wow.

Carol Doscher: I love the double negative, right?

David Lecours: Yeah.

Carol Doscher: But I’m compelled to stay with you, that creates an experience and that experience I have to tell you, that wins work.

David Lecours: Yeah. That’s cool. I can hear the body language in your voice. You’re smacking your hand.

Carol Doscher: I am.

David Lecours: I love it.

Carol Doscher: If it’s distracting, I’m sorry.

David Lecours: No, no. It’s great. It’s what you do and teach and coach.

Carol Doscher: It actually is. Even though we’re talking shortlist interviews, I have now come to actually telling our clients, “Okay, we call this bring your presentations to life, but actually it’s every time you open your mouth training.”

David Lecours: Exactly.

Carol Doscher: It’s literally the same principle, so I’m using body language here on the phone.

David Lecours: Yeah, so what people learn today and what people learn in your training, it’s applicable way beyond in my mind, just the presentation interview, but we’re going to stay focused.

Carol Doscher: Okay, we’re going to stay focused.

David Lecours: My questions are going to be in somewhat sequential order, as if somebody’s going through the process. We talked about why, I’m going to ask some questions about preparation, I’m going to ask some questions about I’m calling it game day, in other words the actual presentation, and then a question or so about the after. Let’s start with preparation. How far in advance should a team start to think about this? Obviously there’s some limitations in terms of when they find out they’ve been shortlisted, or maybe not. Maybe they should be planning way ahead of that. I don’t know. You tell me.

Carol Doscher: Okay. A couple of things come to my mind. One is the firms that I learn win more work are the ones who have done the best research. Now, that is pre-presentation. That’s pre-proposal, but early work, doing the research, finding out what the client cares about, our metaphor is splinters, but who cares? I mean, it’s really what do they care about? What’s making them nervous? That sets the team up.

Carol Doscher: I would say early [crosstalk 00:10:17] … But here’s the thing, in terms of the presentation itself, try to avoid the crunch mode. That is what I’m getting at. The comfort and the confidence of the presenters themselves, because they are your front line, right? Their comfort and confidence, and their ability to be nimble and flexible in that meeting, is directly related to how much they avoid the crunch.

Carol Doscher: I basically want to encourage, start sooner. Whatever sooner is. I know at different times, sooner.

David Lecours: I’m guessing that leadership, depending on the firm of course, will want to be involved in some way and when I say leadership, I’m assuming people that actually aren’t involved in the presentation, but they may want to shape it. I would love to get your feedback on that, how to handle that.

Carol Doscher: I love that you asked that question. I do. Because it’s huge. Huge. All right. It’s also I think one of the biggest struggles in the AEC industry, and perhaps in other industries as well. Leaders are busy, and they’re pulled in so many different directions. So, often we hear of leadership coming in, like the day before, or even sometimes the morning of the presentation.

David Lecours: Oh man.

Carol Doscher: Coming in and they have wisdom. Great, great wisdom, right? And they when we change things. So then what happens is the confidence of the presenters just goes down the tubes, right? So to avoid that-

David Lecours: They’re serving two audiences. They’re trying to please the leader and then they’re trying to make the actual presentation.

Carol Doscher: That’s phenomenally true. That doubles up on the stress. So, we have a wonderful process that we believe in, and we do some research, but get that kickoff meeting. A way to really target this is to get leadership, whether they’re presenting on the presentation themselves, or other leaders in the firm. Get them there, get their voices heard early. That is a game changer for your teams. The other thing that it does is that if everyone is at that kickoff meeting, leadership, leadership, right? And all the presenters, it helps the presenters already start to be able to take ownership of their stories, and that’s going to build their confidence. Confidence is huge, as you know.

David Lecours: Right, sure.

Carol Doscher: I couldn’t agree with you more. Okay. If I go on too long, you just tell me.

David Lecours: No, no, that’s great. To help build that confidence, I’m guessing that some form of a coach is effective, and the two scenarios I’m imagining is an external consultant, a paid consultant, like you and I are, or an internal marketing director. Either way, what do you see the role of this coach should be?

Carol Doscher: Okay. I see two different things. One is, and I’m going to hold off on external versus internal for a moment.

David Lecours: Yeah, yeah, sure.

Carol Doscher: I see marketing support, people who really help to support the process, drive the process, get the rehearsals and the meetings on the people’s calendars, help to support the creation, not the technical creation of say the PowerPoint show or the graphics or visuals, right?

David Lecours: Yep.

Carol Doscher: Then you’ve got that’s huge, to have that strong, have the leadership, if you will, anoint them, give them the authority to be able to drive that is huge. Because it takes the pressure off of the presenters themselves. They’re busy doing other projects and they just have their own job. They have, sorry, their other projects, but also their own work on the presentation, putting together their stories and being able to speak with authenticity, right?

Carol Doscher: So, getting the marketing support. Then you have coaches. Now, I think there are people who are naturally wired to be a coach, period. So, coaching, the delivery takes honestly in my opinion, takes a deft hand to be able to coach the presenters to be able to speak with that authentic voice and confidence. So, sometimes there are people who are great coaches, and sometimes people are more gifted at other tasks. Does that make sense?

David Lecours: Yeah, absolutely.

Carol Doscher: Okay. Do you want me to talk about external versus internal, or?

David Lecours: Yeah, that was going to be my next question. I recognize my own bias as an outside consultant, I recognize that you’re an outside consultant, but I imagine there may be some pros and cons of working with a paid outside coach, and you would know best how to address those.

Carol Doscher: Okay, so this is how we see it. Most of all, I want our teams and our clients to succeed. I want them to be comfortable, I want them to win more work, I want them to be able to take this process that we may teach them and do it all on their own. We’re trying to coach ourselves out of a job. That’s really when we get hired. That’s my vision. I want the training to be right and I want it to stick, right?

Carol Doscher: How we figure out how we get it to stick is A, if they’ve got oh please, we’re surrounded by really smart marketing staff, right? And directors, and coordinators, and all these people. Should we be hired? I believe it’s weird, an internal person can be saying XYZ, right? But we know that nobody listens to their mama. That’s the way we talk about it at GraceWorks.

David Lecours: So true, yeah.

Carol Doscher: You can say the most brilliant thing and you may be an employee, get a W2, and forgive me, you don’t know anything. You hire a consultant, David, I’m sure you’ve experienced this. You come in, right? Say the same thing and like, “Oh, my gosh, that is just so smart.” Now, I don’t think life should be that way, but it just is.

David Lecours: It just is, yeah.

Carol Doscher: It just is. And also an outside person has a little more, we can get away with saying some things that maybe someone who was closer to the situation might not be able to broach.

David Lecours: Right, there’s no political repercussions. You can really give the unvarnished truth.

Carol Doscher: Oh, exactly. So, this is how we see it. We come in, we’re able to speak and the marketing staff and the coaches that are internal are absolutely a part of that experience. Everybody experiences it together, the messages have been sent, we’ve created a team, and now those internal people are set free. If the leadership gives them authority, boom, there it is.

David Lecours: Yeah. No, that makes total sense. Okay, so we’re still in preparation mode, and there’s a couple aspects of how this presentation gets put together. You mentioned the visuals part, there’s also the verbal part, so thinking more about the verbal part, I’m a bit of a control freak. I think details really matter and so it’s typical. I’m imagining there’s some marketing directors that are tempted to script everything out for each presenter. How do you respond to that kind of scenario if it exists?

Carol Doscher: Yeah. David, I love your questions. I just do. I just do. Okay. Because I think you’re hitting upon some real sticklers and some game changing concepts, and ideas. Okay, so I believe your strongest presenter is going to be someone who is absolutely comfortable in their own skin, is speaking about stuff they know and they own, and they feel strongly about.

Carol Doscher: The stronger someone feels about what their topic is, the more comfortable they are, and because live communication is contagious, the more comfortable the audience will be, and they will meet the clients’ needs. So, how do we get there? All right. Here’s the deal. In my book, it’s never a script. Yay. Right? Here’s the thing. Nobody, at least I don’t want to say nobody, because I’m sure there’s someone out there who can, right?

Carol Doscher: Actors learn how to take a script, and make it their own, but that’s not the situation that we’re dealing with in the interview, right?

David Lecours: Yeah.

Carol Doscher: So really presenters, we really can’t deliver somebody else’s words or even somebody else’s great ideas. That’s the truth. It needs to come from the person. It needs to come from within. And also, you have the other issue of there are people, there are presenters who are really strong in language and they love words, and they love to write. We’re all wired differently, based upon our nature, our DNA and our nurture, we’re all wired in different ways we like to think.

Carol Doscher: Some people are language people and they write to love those scripts, but when I ask them, “Well how did that go when you presented it?” They go, “Well, not well because I forget, and then I get all over myself, I start to criticize myself because I forgot my words” and it’s downhill spiral, right? People who are really prone to write scripts, strangely enough, the best thing they can do is not write the script.

Carol Doscher: Literally don’t write it, and they should develop their stories by speaking them out loud, and visualizing what you’re talking about, and using their bodies. Now, I know that sounds insane, okay? It sounds opposite, but it actually sets the people free, and after they’ve talked through their story, they talk it out loud, “Oh, I’ve talked about the grass, I’ve talked about the barn, and I’ve talked about the highway. Oh, that’s the right order of that story” and then they can take a little pen and they write down their bullets. Long, barn, and highway. [crosstalk 00:20:24].

David Lecours: Interesting. So say it before you write it, as the way to craft it. Interesting, I like that.

Carol Doscher: Exactly. I’ve watched it set people free and what happens is left brain is where most of language lives for people, for most people. Left brain is also where the inner critic, the critical mind is, and having a critical mind in life is good because it helps you make judgment, right?

David Lecours: Yeah.

Carol Doscher: But when it comes to communicating, you want to hush that inner critic. That’s why you want to really restrict people who are prone to write, because it’ll kick up their inner critic. Does that make sense?

David Lecours: Yeah. No, absolutely. I’m guessing the client wants to see some cohesion of the team and you’ve got like maybe three or four different presenters. I guess should there be some sort of thread that goes through? Again, maybe it’s the control thing, I’m just worried you set these people free, they do three super individual, I don’t know, expressions, and I’m feeling like now they’re not a team. Am I missing something?

Carol Doscher: Okay. I have a couple things to say about team, and I’m hoping I’m going to remember both. Well, at the beginning of the preparation process, the full team and leadership and anybody who has intel on the project should come together and come together and create an agenda, an overall story that everyone agrees upon. Everybody has voice upon.

David Lecours: Okay, cool.

Carol Doscher: So there is, and the agenda in my opinion, needs to be 100% focused on the listener, on the client, and what they care about. The tendency to do the we-we show, [inaudible 00:22:15], is not good. It’s all over the place. We want to create the you-you show. Everybody needs to be onboard with what is the overall story. Each of the presenters are telling a piece of the story but it’s all part of one story, okay? Each part, there’s pieces and places for. Does that make sense?

David Lecours: Yes.

Carol Doscher: All right. The other thing, I’m just going to throw this in here, if I may?

David Lecours: Sure.

Carol Doscher: A client is looking at the team and basically they’re going, “Who are you? Who are you to me? Who are you to each other? How does this team function?” In my opinion, there are four ways that the client will walk away knowing how that works. One is the person’s project title, not their internal title, project title. But even those titles, that’s loose, because firms call people different things.

Carol Doscher: But number two, the content that that person talks about, when they talk about it, and how long they talk about it. If you put all four of those pieces in place, as you structure the presentation, the client will experience the team. The other thing about teamwork is as I mentioned before, that’s one of the things that clients … “Why did we hire you? You proved that you were a team.” Talk is cheap, don’t tell me you’re a team. “I’ve worked with David for 15 years.” Great, you and I could have fought like cats and dogs, right? Talking doesn’t mean anything, but demonstrating teamwork.

Carol Doscher: The fastest way, and it’s really an easy way to demonstrate teamwork is in the handoffs that you give one to the other. Is it okay if I share this right now?

David Lecours: Yeah, no. I love this, the transitions part. I hope you talk about the thing where you introduce the next person, what you call-

Carol Doscher: Yes.

David Lecours: Okay, cool.

Carol Doscher: Exactly. Okay, so here is what usually happens, right? Well now I’m going to let David explain his process for working with a client. Oh, great, who died and made me queen? I’m going to let you do that. Wow, how dictatorial of me, right? Or I could say, “Now David’s going to do da, da, da, da, da, da,” right?

David Lecours: Right.

Carol Doscher: I’m talking about you in the third person.

David Lecours: Like as if I’m not even there.

Carol Doscher: Exactly. You’re in the other room. Okay, here’s the easy switch. Everybody, don’t talk about each other in the third person. Talk directly to each other. “David, what are you happy to say?” “David, I’m done, what’s on your mind?”

David Lecours: I can see you turning your body, too, right? To face me.

Carol Doscher: Exactly. And actually it’s not formal. You don’t want to be formal. You want to just be like a human, and if you behave with each other like you do in the office, now they experience the team, and that wins work.

David Lecours: Yeah. I use this quote, “Formality is banality.”

Carol Doscher: I’ll have to write that down.

David Lecours: Yeah. Those silly formalities are so annoying. Yeah, you mentioned them earlier, expectations about, “Now is the time that I’m going to present Carol. Carol, here’s the presentation stick” or I don’t know, whatever [crosstalk 00:25:35]-

Carol Doscher: You know what I would say? I say, “Thank you David.” Don’t thank anybody unless you really mean it. But I have to tell you, we had a client who we’d done some training, they drank the Kool-Aid, they went in, they did a presentation, they won the job, great. The next week, the project team was having lunch in a restaurant and the project manager for the client was in the same restaurant. Got up out of their chair, came over to the table and said, “That was a great presentation and by the way, thank you for not saying, ‘I’m going to let so and so talk about.’ Thank you for not saying that.”

David Lecours: Right, interesting.

Carol Doscher: I couldn’t believe that someone actually could articulate that kind of … Isn’t that great?

David Lecours: Yeah, that is great. Okay, so final question in terms of preparation, curious if you have tips about how to rehearse?

Carol Doscher: Yes.

David Lecours: I figured you did.

Carol Doscher: I’m sorry, David. I cut you off.

David Lecours: No, that’s it. Short and sweet.

Carol Doscher: Here are three tips. Number one, practice out loud. Thinking about what you’re going to share is about as effective as thinking about going to the gym.

David Lecours: Yeah, [crosstalk 00:26:57] works out.

Carol Doscher: It’s actually bad for you, because it makes you mental. It makes you intellectual, it makes you heady. It does not bring you, it doesn’t, it’s actually bad practice. [inaudible 00:27:09] practice. Practice out loud, but don’t practice in front of a mirror. That’s weird.

Carol Doscher: Also, it could make you self-conscious and no, you don’t want to be self-conscious. You want to be conscious of your listeners. Here’s a game changer. Oh, it’s going to be wonderful. Practice without your graphics.

David Lecours: Interesting. Now why?

Carol Doscher: Why? Because not singling out architects, because honestly, it’s not just architects, but we love our slides. Don’t we love our slides?

David Lecours: I know where you’re going. Yes, we do.

Carol Doscher: We love our slides. We do. There is an umbilical cord that has us attached to our slides and it is deep, and it is multilevel. It is a hard habit to break, but here’s the thing. Think about this. An audience is jealous for the attention of the speaker. [inaudible 00:28:10] that, right?

David Lecours: Yeah.

Carol Doscher: You want that speaker to deliver stuff to you that matters to you, you want them to care about you and meeting your needs. I think that’s basic. Would you agree with me?

David Lecours: Yeah, absolutely.

Carol Doscher: Anytime that a presenter is talking to anything other than the people, like the slides, or the notes, or the air, you’re shooting yourselves in the foot. Because trust, commitment, and chemistry happens when people are connecting with people. Here’s the rule of thumb from our perspective. To make a human connection, talk with a human. Don’t talk to inanimate objects.

Carol Doscher: But I’ll tell you, that’s a hard habit to break to get away from talking with the slides, and of your listeners are going to go, “But my story’s on my slide and I have to show them stuff.” That’s when you practice without them, you’re visualizing your story out front, I’m just going to drop this out here and I’m hoping somebody can get this. All of your stories, no matter what they are, projects, whatever, should live in front of you as you face the audience. It’s like you’re talking with your family in the backyard about a project that you’re working on and you’re all excited about it, and you don’t have a PowerPoint slide, and you don’t have a piece of paper to draw it.

Carol Doscher: You’re just literally mapping it out for them in front of you. When you do that, that is a party for your listeners, and your clients will love you for it. Have I lost the audience there, David?

David Lecours: No. I get it. It’s painting the picture with words so that the slides will only enhance it if you have, support it, yeah.

Carol Doscher: Exactly. And you visualize it. The slides are like icing on the cake.

David Lecours: Exactly.

Carol Doscher: Practice without your graphics. That’s it.

David Lecours: In terms of this rehearsal, everybody together and should you do it in the sequence that it’s going to actually happen?

Carol Doscher: Yes, for sure. After everybody has gone and they’ve created that agenda, we all agree upon it, we go home and we create our stories and we dig deep. We find our personal positive passion, we create our bulleted notes, we talk them out loud at home, we come together as a group, and actually do what I like to do the ugly rehearsal. It’s a game changer.

Carol Doscher: You sit around the table, you do not have any graphics or slides, I know that sounds insane but it’s good. You actually do the presentation, you don’t talk about it. “Well David, you’re going to talk about that and I’m going to talk about” … No. That’s not this rehearsal. That’s the kickoff meeting. You’re discussing it. You actually do the presentation, you don’t stop or interrupt anybody, you take notes if you have something to say afterwards, and you ballpark time it.

Carol Doscher: Let me tell you, those rules, do the ugly rehearsal like that, it ramps up the confidence of the presenters in spades, it saves you a whole lot of time as a team, you’ve got your story, and then it’s easy breezy putting graphics to what that story is.

David Lecours: Excellent. I feel so prepared.

Carol Doscher: You’re so dear.

David Lecours: Let’s transition to game day, right? We’ve done all the prep work, the hard work. I mean, it’s all hard work and each phase is important, but now we’re moving to the actual presenter. I’ve heard and I’ve read things that you’ve written about, you believe that the presenter’s job is to help the client not be a great presenter. I wonder if you can say a little more about that.

Carol Doscher: Right. Yes, I believe that in any kind of communication, but as a presenter, your single task as a presenter should be to help the listener get the message. That should be your intent. That’s a very different intent than, “Well, I have to make a presentation” or, “I have to get my points across. I have to cover these bullets. I have to deliver these slides.” Very different intent.

Carol Doscher: Helping is serving. Helping is focusing on the other person’s needs, and seeking wholeheartedly to meet them. When people grab hold to this, “Wow, all I have to do is help my listener get it,” it changes everything. Their nerves take a dive bomb because you’re focusing on the listener. The listener’s needs are being meet because they are being paid attention to. We like to blow up this intent to help the listener from yes, from a speaker to a listener, that’s my intent, but let’s blow it up to a more strategic level.

Carol Doscher: We like to call it the decision sieve. If you, as you prepare a presentation funnel, every decision you make through, “Well, will it help the listener?” You will always get the right answer. For example, “Well, what are we going to talk about? What’s the content?” Well, what’s going to help the listener make a wise decision? Who actually should be going to this presentation? Well, what’s going to help the listener? Who is going to help the listener get comfortable with this team? Are we going to use graphics and what kind? Well, what’s going to help the listener catch the vision for this project? Are we going to practice? Well, what’s going to help the listener?

David Lecours: What’s going to help the listener? All right, I’m getting it.

Carol Doscher: Got the idea? Okay. That’s it.

David Lecours: Yeah, no that’s good. A lot of the firms that we work, whether they’re architecture, engineering, or constructional, a lot of what they do is very technical and sometimes the client is pretty technically savvy. But I’m seeing this continuum of technical versus emotionally compelling, and there’s a need to marry those. Are there any techniques that you can offer presenters for making technical information more interesting?

Carol Doscher: Yes. Well, I’m going to have to say the word trust. I’m going to start with that. Because most people, most presenters feel like they need to be professional, they need to be correct, right? They need to be appropriate. I’m not saying people shouldn’t be appropriate but they need to be professional. And especially people who are maybe going to deliver a lot of technical information, they may have a little more of a gifting on the left side of their brains which is more analytical, fact based, logical, sequential, and they want to put in all those details.

Carol Doscher: We like to tell them trust and let your inner geek fly. We love the geek, right? The reason I say trust is because that’s going to be hard for them do that. They’re going to say, “What? Doesn’t work,” right? But I have to tell you, it’s kind of like go ahead and get geeky. “What do you love about being a project manager?” “Quite honestly, what I love most of all is when I actually finish the task and I get to check it off. Nothing makes my day happier than boom, did it, check it off,” right?

Carol Doscher: That sounds a little geeky, right? But guess what? You’ve got a project manager who can get things done. People have to be encouraged and they have to try it and then get applauded, but it really is about, I’ll just say this. I’ll never forget this, Jennifer and I worked with a young woman and she was literally on fire about building codes. I know that sounds, that’s weird, right?

David Lecours: Right, it’s an oxymoron.

Carol Doscher: But she got up and gave the most heartfelt, woohoo, passionate, she got all geeky about building codes, right? We all remember her, and the whole place was, they stood up and gave her a standing O. One last thing I want to share about this, this is really good, this [inaudible 00:36:11]. Gosh, about 21 years ago, when we first started GraceWorks, a client called us in to take a look at their presentation. I went in, oh, it was big, bad, and boring. It was.

Carol Doscher: It was a highway job, construction firm, there was a rock blast part of this job, right? There was a geologist on the team who was going to take care of the rock blast. Plus he’s already probably sat there for like three hours waiting for his turn to talk. What we do with our consultants, right? Okay, so got to be his turn, you know what he said? He literally, I’m quoting him, “I love rocks. I can’t wait to get my hands on those rocks.”

Carol Doscher: This guy, David, he lit up the room. No joke. Then he went and got all geeky and told every little ticky detail about those rocks. I remember it 21 years later. Speak and let them know how you feel about what you’re talking about first, and then you can [inaudible 00:37:11]. Hopefully that helps somebody.

David Lecours: Yeah, yeah, no. That’s good. If I could summarize, it’s not what you talk about, it doesn’t matter. It’s the way you talk about it and-

Carol Doscher: That’s right.

David Lecours: … it’s the passion, and I guess what I’m hearing you say is you can talk about the most technical thing in the world and if you’re enthusiastic and excited about it, it’s infectious, and the audience will feel that.

Carol Doscher: It absolutely is. Live communication requires both the intellect and the emotion for the message to reach the listener. It just does.

David Lecours: No, absolutely. You mentioned that the handoff part, are there any other things in the moment, on game day, that the team can do to help demonstrate teamwork?

Carol Doscher: Oh, okay. Yes, I’m glad you asked that. You have to be conscious about this. Every team member, whether they are speaking or especially when they are not speaking, when they’re not speaking at the moment, they need to be actively listening to the speaker, in the present moment. Let me tell you, that actually takes more concentration than getting up and doing your portion of it. Because it is-

David Lecours: Yes, you’ve probably heard it before, so yeah.

Carol Doscher: Exactly. Hopefully you have, because you practiced, right?

David Lecours: Right.

Carol Doscher: When everybody really listens in the present moment, it creates a presence with your team that literally jumps out at the client. They don’t know what it is, they just know life has entered the room. It also sets you up for real handoffs, and pop ins, and in the moment, getting, “Oh, boom, there it is.” You practice to be spontaneous. You don’t get self-indulgent. Still have to stay faithful to your plan, but there’s still room for a certain amount of flexibility, right? Listening is huge. And the other thing that they should do, what can really help them, is ahead of the time, either as a team or if you need to, go into the restroom and you need to, what I like to say, shake, wiggle, dance, and sing.

Carol Doscher: That’s popping this in there at this point, but to get your heart rate up for about 30 seconds is going to deal with your adrenalin, it activates your right brain, where all the communication skills live, and it’s going to make you a much better presenter.

David Lecours: Yeah, that’s the point. All right, so we’ve covered prep, we’ve covered game day, just one final question about what happens after the presentation. I’m curious, you mentioned that SMPS study. Any other insight on what makes a team successful or maybe is there some suggestion about follow-up or recap what you said? Should you deliver handouts? I’m just trying to think post-delivery behavior and habits there.

Carol Doscher: Okay. Well, I do think one, you have to be aware that you, as long as you’re in the room, you are, and I’m not going to say the word on stage, because I don’t look at this, even though I’m from the theater, I don’t look at this as a performance at all, but you are visible. How you communicate with the panel and how you communicate with each other demonstrates how you’re going to be to work with.

Carol Doscher: You need to be mindful of that. I definitely would give handouts at the end. I would not give them at the beginning. Because you want to help your listeners stay focused on you. That’s where their needs are going to be met. That’s where you’re making a human connection. You want to do whatever you can do to help them stay focused on you in the present moment, okay?

Carol Doscher: I want to also just pop this in if I might. On that note to help them stay focused on you, your visuals, you want to really simplify your visuals, and just lead with this principle. Help your listeners focus on one thing at a time. Don’t put them in conflict by putting up busy slide and keep talking. They won’t know what to do. Animate those graphics, one thing at a time. That’s the principle. I think … I don’t know.

David Lecours: Yeah. I always tell clients, slides are free. If you’ve got seven points to make, you need to have at least seven slides, not seven bullet points. Just make individual.

Carol Doscher: It’s an interesting concept. Some people think, “Well, we have too many slides.” Well no. Words make a presentation long, not clicks. I don’t ever, there’s no logic to me to say how long do you spend on a slide? That doesn’t make sense. What is my story? Story drives graphics, I’m a big believer in that.

David Lecours: Absolutely. Well Carol, this has been excellent.

Carol Doscher: Oh, so kind.

David Lecours: I think there’s so much good stuff that if our listeners want to improve their presentation interviews, they just need to listen this a couple of times, or maybe even take this episode into their principle and have them listen as well. Where can people find you out there on the web, or if they want to learn more about you or your firm, GraceWorks?

Carol Doscher: Okay, thank you. First of all, I really hope that this has been helpful. If there’s anything confusing, I do hope you’ll reach out to us, because I know talking about presentations, some of it’s visual. Anyway, I hope it’s helpful. Find us at www.GraceWorksInc.com. That’s our website. Should I give the phone number? I don’t know whether we do that.

David Lecours: Yeah, sure.

Carol Doscher: Okay. Our office phone number is 212-724-1541.

David Lecours: All right.

Carol Doscher: And GraceWorksInc.com, and it’s been a joy. David, you’re such a gracious, you’re a wonderful host. Thank you.

David Lecours: Well, thanks. All right, so that’s it for this episode of PSM Show, focused on presentation interviews. Big thanks to Carol and to our sponsor, SMPS. If you, our listeners, have any questions or comments, we always love hearing from you. Reach out to us at PMS.show, and drop us a note. From Carol Doscher and myself, best wishes and win your next presentation interview.